makeste: (Do you have a map?)
makeste ([personal profile] makeste) wrote2011-07-02 06:19 pm

Back when KHR and I got married years ago...

...and we said our vows, and got to the whole for-better-or-worse-in-sickness-and-in-health part, I never imagined that I would so often find myself desperately confused about WHICH WAS WHICH.


  • "THE LAST DESPERATE MOMENT OF ULTIMATE CRISIS"... well, okay. Granted, it is hard to imagine there ever being another moment with Tsuna as close to death (aside from the Future Arc, of course, where he spent a good chunk of the arc actually being dead), but if a situation like this ever does come along again, Amano is somehow going to have to outdo all of that, which I imagine is going to be tough given that she used both the word "last" and the word "ultimate." But far be it from me to mock her for setting her bars high!
  • Oh, Giotto and Cozart. You and your bizarre system of wrapping up all of your problems and dumping them all on your future descendants in the most hilariously elaborate way possible.
  • Seriously, they went so far as to combine their rings into one, turn it into a magical memory key, and then break it apart and give one half to each descendant and just wait and hope that one day they would all just figure it out somehow and put it back together at the critical moment? And did Cozart just silently sit by and make no remarks about how "VONGOLA FAMIGLIA" is plastered all the fuck over Giotto's half of the ring while the Simon half is incredibly modest and, if I may say so, boring? Because Cozart, your refusal to do anything about your boyfriend's rampant ego tripping has now led to your adorable descendent getting screwed out of the final hero moment, so I hope you're happy. XD
  • Also, WHAT THE FUCK, SERIOUSLY. How many late nights did they stay up plotting all of this out to the smallest detail? And when are we going to get to the next arc where inevitably Tsuna and Enma will find another set of keys and this series eventually leads to them discovering how they have also inherited all of their predecessors' gambling debts? Given all the trouble that the first set of keys caused, Primo really should have plastered his ring with a giant "FUCK YOU, TSUNA" instead.
  • I like that the key transfers memories to both Spade and Owlkuro. I guess it just couldn't make up its mind.
  • OMG OMG ARE WE GETTING PLOT. *_* I'M SORRY, MY BRAIN IS GOING TO BE OPERATING ON SHUT-UP MODE FOR THE NEXT SEVERAL PAGES AS I PROCESS ALL OF THIS SHINY NEW INFORMATION.
  • Vindice, your mafia laws are really stupid, and I really have to question Giotto and Cozart's reasoning in just SILENTLY GOING ALONG WITH THEM. I especially love how Giotto made a super-shocked "THIS CANNOT BE" face and then literally two panels later said, "Okay, that's fine." ??!
  • AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU WANT THEM TO LEARN YOUR TRUE HISTORY?? AND WHY ONLY AFTER THE BATTLES? SO WERE YOU ALREADY PLANNING TO HAVE THEM JUST NOT KNOW ANYTHING AND THEN GET INTO A LITTLE WAR WITH EACH OTHER OVER A MISUNDERSTANDING AND GET THEMSELVES IMPRISONED AND THEN SHOW THEM THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS? HOLY SHIT, MAN, I SWEAR TO GOD YOU MAKE EVEN SPADE LOOK HALFWAY REASONABLE IN COMPARISON!!
  • "THEN YOU'RE FREE TO ROAST THEM OR BURN THEM" OH MY GOD IF IT WAS GOING TO BE LIKE THIS THEN WHY DID YOU TWO EVER EVEN PROCREATE. DO YOU JUST HATE INNOCENT CHILDREN, OR WHAT.
  • EVERYONE IS JUST STANDING AROUND MAKING TRIUMPHANT FACES BUT AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO SEES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BE SMILING ABOUT?? REALLY, YOU GUYS? SO A DEAL LIKE THIS APPARENTLY RATES A "JUST AS PLANNED" ON THE COZART AND GIOTTO SCALE?
  • By the way, I apologize that apparently "shut-up mode" for me is more or less the opposite of shutting up. I just saw the word "Arcobaleno" so I figured we were about to get some new juicy info that would actually justify this ridiculous set-up the Primos put into place, but boy, was I ever off the mark! We can all just have a good laugh about this later.
  • Well, Enma, you would have to be blind to all things good and pure to not acknowledge it!
  • ...okay. I have to admit that a combined earth and sky flame is... yeah. That is pretty fucking cool. And it is always fun to see Spade lose his shit and throw a temper tantrum.
  • Oath's Flame, eh? Well, fair enough, I guess it's more badass than "universe flame" or whatever else they could have gone with using the whole sky-and-earth-combined theme. SPACE FLAME or GALAXY FLAME would have had more more loling than impressed.
  • Speaking of lol, I see Tsuna inherited Enma's penis flame. XDDDD
  • "HOW ARE YOU ABLE TO STAND?!" Fair question, Daemon, a fair question indeed! And based on Tsuna's explanation, which by the by still sounds incredibly painful, I think we may even be able to work out some sort of explanation for how Enma was able to survive becoming a black hole and then getting blown up by Tsuna a while back. Now that is halfway reasonable!
  • Everything about this page made me laugh. That is all.
  • Spade getting punched into a Spade-shaped hole and then his disembodied voice floating out of the hole and calling Tsuna a bastard also made me laugh.
  • Seriously, like the instant Tsuna inherited Enma's godmode flame this whole fight was over and done with. It's the whole "I'll hold him, and you punch!" cooperation, only he can do both the holding and punching. Spade, you are so effing screwed, I almost feel sorry for you, except LOL NO NEVER.
  • "SO YOU NOTICED I CAN NEVER DIE, EH?" Yeah, and it's been a bit troublesome, too.
  • HIS AND ENMA'S FLAMES~~ \o\ \o/ /o/ AND THEIR FLAMES CAN NOW GET LEGALLY MARRIED IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK, SO GO TO HELL, SPADE. I LOVE EVERYTHING~~~~


  • Oh man, the chapter is done already. I WAS ON A ROLL. This chapter makes me want to go don a rainbow cape and fight crime. And then go back in time and punch Giotto and Cozart just a little bit, but then forgive them because despite their horribleness, I can't overlook the fact that their blatant disregard for the wellbeing of their children's children has kept me magnificently entertained for the duration of this arc. So maybe I'm the truly horrible one. But that's okay, because as a rainbow caped crusader, I'll finally have the chance to redeem myself.

[identity profile] windgoddess688.livejournal.com 2011-07-02 11:54 pm (UTC)(link)
I swear I didn't even realize that this arc is somehow already a year and some odd months old.... at least it was good for lulz while it lasted even though plot logic seemed to be....if I say missing, that's normal for this manga...so...i guess the word i'm looking for is...extra...missing?

heh....rainbow cape wearing crusader....teeheee....

also please to be having more bad ass looking reborn's like in that last panel XDDDD

[identity profile] makeste.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 02:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, it kind of flew by... though a year and a half is still fairly short as long as far as story arcs go. Or maybe I'm just still thinking in terms of the Future Arc where it took us like two years just to get halfway through the arc. I expect that's why she's rushed her way through most of this one, heh.

And yeah, extra missing seems like a good way to put it. Most of the time when stuff gets explained in this series it at least actually makes sense in the context of the series. Again comparing it to the Future Arc, where almost everything was explained in the end, even if the explanations weren't always 100 percent satisfying, this arc has been fairly disappointing on the sense-o-meter. We keep getting more like halfway explanations that themselves need some explaining. For example, why exactly are the Vindice so fucking concerned with the mafia keeping this particular promise, and sticking their noses into Giotto and Cozart's private business, threatening to make their descendants rot in hell for all eternity, etc.? We got exactly two words of explanation for that: "mafia law." Like we're expected to just nod our heads and go, "ah, yes, that makes sense." XD

And the thing is that it could make sense if Amano did go into more detail about the Vindice and their motivations, but either she's teasing us and withholding that info for later, or she just doesn't care. Either way, it gets frustrating.

That said, it's KHR, and these days I'm reading it for the characters and the lulz, really. The badass Reborn panel is a perfect example of the things I do still love about this manga. YES, PLZ TO BE HAVING MORE OF THOSE. <3

[identity profile] escherichiacola.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 12:17 am (UTC)(link)
Also, WHAT THE FUCK, SERIOUSLY. How many late nights did they stay up plotting all of this out to the smallest detail? And when are we going to get to the next arc where inevitably Tsuna and Enma will find another set of keys and this series eventually leadis to them discovering how they have also inherited all of their predecessors' gambling debts?

Most amazing summery ever and I hope Amano reads this.

[identity profile] makeste.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 02:42 pm (UTC)(link)
I expect they will also find out that Giotto and Cozart's excess use of their respective dying will flames are also the cause of this generation's global warming crisis, which they are expected to resolve in the next 24 hours or else the Vindice will toss all of their friends into a volcano.

STAY TUNED. IT'S HAPPENING!

[identity profile] elanor-pam.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 01:20 am (UTC)(link)
You know, by my interpretation, both Giotto and Cozart were operating under the assumption that if their families ever did battle, it would be as a result of Daemon Spade's rampant dickery, or some other sort of misunderstanding (which is where the displaying of memories went in, I guess. REMEMBER HOW BROS YOUR ANCESTORS WERE.). So, if the descendants saw the memories and still didn't try to go for diplomacy, then they were just being dicks throwing super-powered tantrums and deserved to be sent to the corner of shame.

It's not much nicer, but it does have a sort of internal logic...? Or maybe I'm just trying to make things make sense.

[identity profile] makeste.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 03:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, but Daemon Spade is precisely the reason why I'd have thought they would think twice before making a deal like this to begin with. They are fully aware there is a guy out there obsessively dedicated to causing a rift between their two families, so they decide sure, why not, if that ever does happen let's implement this long and torturous one-memory-at-a-time process so that our descendants can painstakingly find out that they were wrong and their ancestors were bros all along, and realize the error of their ways long after some of them have already been imprisoned or even killed? I mean, Bermuda explicitly says that they will imprison the losers of each battle until they die, and Giotto just shrugs and says it's fine, as long as they get the memories of what really went down beforehand.

Basically the only bone they do toss to the Tenth gen is that if they do honor the oath afterward, "their wills will become one and our flames will burn." Which is all well and good for whichever kids are still unimprisoned at that point, I suppose. But it was Tsuna and Enma who worked out a deal for the Vindice to let the rest of their families free, and they only managed that because the Vindice were desperate after Spade got loose. If it hadn't been for that, they'd have been on their own, and even if they did manage to break the others out of prison, they'd have spent the rest of their lives on the run.

So while it's clear Giotto and Cozart's intentions weren't bad, at least, it still seems to me that they couldn't have been more "shucks, oh well" about the whole thing in general. Not just with this, but with their decision to let Spade get away scott-free while they just ran away and let him do as he pleased. IIRC, Cozart's reasoning was something like "there would be too much sacrifice involved" if they did try to stop him, which seems kind of insane given that what happened instead was that they let him corrupt the Vongola family for nine generations, while the Simon family grew weaker and weaker, and eventually Spade came back to try and finish them off anyway, killing Enma's entire family in the process, and holy shit.

So basically the reason why I'm so all-capsy about this whole thing is that it seems that Giotto and Cozart's favorite method of dealing with things was to just sit back and take NO RESPONSIBILITY WHATSOEVER for the shitstorm that they helped to cause, and basically let the entire burden fall on Tsuna and Enma's shoulders instead, and let insane groups like the Vindice do whatever the fuck they pleased because mafia law, man, who can argue with that, anyway? And it is just mind-boggling to me that this entire arc happened just because Giotto and Cozart escaped from Spade once and decided to just shrug and call it a day afterward.

SORRY FOR THE SUPER-LONG RANT, I'm just trying to make sense out of this whole thing myself, and just... failing miserably, I guess. XDDD

[identity profile] elanor-pam.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 05:28 pm (UTC)(link)
But from my understanding, according to Giotto and Cozart's conditions, when they called the battle off the prisoners would be freed as well, no? Or did I make this up? It's been a few days since I read this chapter.

I'm willing to wait until Daemon Spade's defeated and Julie's piece of memory is available before making judgements. Maybe Giotto and Cozart put some other things in motion, I dunno.

[identity profile] makeste.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 06:01 pm (UTC)(link)
If they had thrown that in that would have redeemed a large part of what's been driving me crazy about the flashbacks, but unless this translation is wrong, they made no mention of that whatsoever. Giotto said "that's fine" and Cozart said "but if they return to their true friendship and honor this oath, their wills will become one and our flames will burn." Nothing at all about freeing the prisoners. (And if they had thrown in that condition, you'd think the Vindice would have held off on hauling the losers off to be locked up until after all seven battles were completed, just to be sure.)

And I thought this was the last memory, though? I thought there were only seven keys, and the last memory just got released early for dramatic effect? ...then again, did they ever mention how many keys there were? Maybe I'm making things up now. XD

[identity profile] elanor-pam.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 07:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Eh, maybe I just made an assumption. Maybe it's mangastream's translation. I dunno, I'm just going to make it my personal canon if we don't get any more of an explanation.

From my understanding, the triggering of memories had to take place after the defeat of each guardian. Julie was never technically defeated; Daemon Spade is taking his place. So, by this logic, there's one last memory to be triggered in the event of his defeat, and the current one was a bonus caused by the ring-mating.

Ooooooor maybe I'm just pulling stuff out of my ass. I have a headache.

[identity profile] ojuzu.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 02:35 am (UTC)(link)
I can't overlook the fact that their blatant disregard for the wellbeing of their children's children has kept me magnificently entertained for the duration of this arc.

Yup! I love that they basically care NOTHING WHATSOEVER for their descendants(/reincarnations). It makes everything incredibly hilarious. (Also, note that they didn't actually say the Vindice weren't allowed to lock their descendants up and torture them if they went all buddy-buddy again. Guess they figured if the kids couldn't fight the Mafia Police off two-on-all they weren't worth saving.)

Also, WHAT THE FUCK, SERIOUSLY. How many late nights did they stay up plotting all of this out to the smallest detail? And when are we going to get to the next arc where inevitably Tsuna and Enma will find another set of keys and this series eventually leads to them discovering how they have also inherited all of their predecessors' gambling debts?

. . . I would actually really enjoy seeing Tsuna and Enma freaking the fuck out over the billions and billions of yen (the Mafia is totes from Japan, amirite) that they will never be able to repay, because they have NO MARKETABLE JOB SKILLS that anyone would actually believe. Or, alternatively, freaking the fuck out because the only way for them to get money is to actually act like members of organized crime. :D

Spade getting punched into a Spade-shaped hole and then his disembodied voice floating out of the hole and calling Tsuna a bastard also made me laugh.

I think that was the thing I enjoyed most about this chapter. Oh Spade, why so lolarious? He's like a Loony Toons character, except less viscerally terrifying! Speaking of which, I hope we someday get the story behind the random eyes and mouths. Magic mist powers? Not-dying bonus powerups? Childhood-with-the-Estraneo aftereffects Mukuro was hiding? THE WORLD MUST KNOW.

[identity profile] makeste.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 03:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Also, note that they didn't actually say the Vindice weren't allowed to lock their descendants up and torture them if they went all buddy-buddy again.

YES. They didn't even bother to put a "but if they do see the error of their ways afterward, you have to let them go!" clause in there; the closest they got was Cozart saying that "their wills will become one." So I guess they figured they could use that new Oath Flame to take on the Vindice afterward if things came to that, but even if they did manage to bust everyone else out of jail and escape, they'd basically be hunted for the rest of their lives. So that's fun.

And lol, I would too, now that you mention it. This has the potential for lulz. :'D

Spade's incessant hilariousness is his one redeeming factor, basically. And I really want to know what's up with all of those eyes and mouths too. I know Mukuro in the past has had a habit of attacking with eyeball illusions, but AFAIK the mouths are a new thing. Maybe Amano just (correctly) figured that it would given everyone the creeps, and perhaps be one of the few things that would actually encourage people to take him seriously. XD

[identity profile] metisket.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 02:53 am (UTC)(link)
...I spent pretty much the entire flashback being like, G HOW ARE YOU LETTING THIS HAPPEN??? I THOUGHT YOU WERE THE ONE WITH A BRAIN.

Clearly that was my mistake. Either he really is just a pretty face and Gokudera won all the brain in that ancestor contest, or else he's that trampled down by Giotto. Which. Would actually be pretty hilarious. XD

Also, wtf is wrong with Cozart? "Roast them, burn them," was he not hugged enough as a child or what? D:

This arc gave us Owlkuro, though. For that alone, I can forgive very nearly any failures of logic. ^_^

So should we be excited for the next chapter or just terrified? I can't decide.

[identity profile] makeste.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 03:26 pm (UTC)(link)
G always seemed fairly smart to me, so I guess it must be that his one weakness is that he's a little too loyal to Giotto, I guess. Here I thought that one of a consigliere's main job functions was to advise the boss/point out whenever if he is about to do something particularly stupid, but I guess that's just not the way in KHR?

[livejournal.com profile] elanor_pam and [livejournal.com profile] storm_obsession have pointed out the ROAST THEM BURN THEM thing was only on the condition that they still wanted to fight each other even after learning the true bro history of their ancestors, but even so, it still seems pretty harsh to me. For one thing, as all-seeing as Giotto and Cozart might fancy themselves, they had no way of knowing whether some other tragedy might occur down the line that would cause a rift between the families that not even magical flashbacks could heal. For example, one boss's father brutally murdering the family of the other boss. Yes, that turned out to be a lie, thank God, but either way, those guys don't seem to have taken that kind of possibility into account.

And for another thing, agreeing to this whole deal in general is completely insane, for reasons I've already ranted about above and won't go into elaborate detail on again here. XD But basically, yeah, the first gen really dropped the ball on this one.

This arc gave us Owlkuro, though. For that alone, I can forgive very nearly any failures of logic. ^_^

AGREED. Owlkuro, pomp!Hibird, Shitt P, chapter 294, Lambo character development, and the pure epic that has been Tsuna and Enma's bromance. For all that I might be complaining about the numerous plot holes hither and thither, I have enjoyed the heck out of this arc regardless; in fact, it's probably second only to the Varia Arc for me.

So should we be excited for the next chapter or just terrified?

I'm going to go with excited, I guess; in the end I always do. So, here's hoping. o/

[identity profile] aoiaoidesu.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 04:00 am (UTC)(link)
This chapter really made me realize how Giotto and Cozart are both ignorant about their future children. Their children.

AND THEIR FLAMES CAN NOW GET LEGALLY MARRIED IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK, SO GO TO HELL, SPADE.
LOL. I thought they were married already? XD

Spade continues being a bleach character a weird entity *___* Gruesome creature T_T

[identity profile] aoiaoidesu.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 04:03 am (UTC)(link)
And oh the arcobaleno mention ♥.♥ I was all "Shut up, Spade. I need my Arcobaleno backstory now. Just die and let us be happy, k?"

[identity profile] makeste.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 03:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't know that they're ignorant so much as they don't really seem to give a shit? Lol.

LOL. I thought they were married already? XD

TRUE.

Spade continues being a bleach character

Heh. |D But yes, agreed. He is kind of a freak, that Spade guy. But in the funniest darned way, though.

[identity profile] azartti.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 05:12 am (UTC)(link)
EVERYONE IS JUST STANDING AROUND MAKING TRIUMPHANT FACES BUT AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO SEES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BE SMILING ABOUT?? REALLY, YOU GUYS? SO A DEAL LIKE THIS APPARENTLY RATES A "JUST AS PLANNED" ON THE COZART AND GIOTTO SCALE?

MY THOUGHT EXACTLY.

[identity profile] makeste.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 03:31 pm (UTC)(link)
GIOTTO AND COZART MAY NOT QUITE QUALIFY FOR THE DICK OLYMPICS ON ACCOUNT OF THEM HAVING BASICALLY GOOD INTENTIONS IN SPITE OF EVERYTHING, BUT THEY SURE DO BOTH QUALITY FOR THE OLYMPICS OF NOT GIVING A FUCK. I mean, damn. XD

[identity profile] azartti.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 10:09 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't know man, I think they do qualify for the Dick Olympics but they were just overrun by Spade and Byakuran. I hope that Tsuna can yell at Giotoo for being suck a dick and not telling anything.

[identity profile] storm-obsession.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 08:40 am (UTC)(link)
About Cozart saying that he was willing to let the Vindice burn roast and slow broil their kids seemed reasonable to me. I mean, before you accuse me of being a heartless person, the conditions were that if they STILL insisted on fighting AFTER they found out about Giotto and Cozart's lovely friendship THEN they deserved to be cooked and served to bandaged people with no faces. So technically, if ANYONE could continue fighting after seeing all that, then they must be pretty bad people (like, I dunno, XANXUS BWAHAHAHA) who deserve what was coming anyway.

[identity profile] elanor-pam.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 12:34 pm (UTC)(link)
My rationale exactly! I AGREE WITH THIS COMMENT.

[identity profile] makeste.livejournal.com 2011-07-03 03:43 pm (UTC)(link)
But leaving aside the fact that I still do find it pretty heartless to say "yeah, sure, go ahead and burn them, etc" about one's future descendants under any circumstances, the thing is though, Giotto and Cozart can't see the future. They have no way of knowing whether something might happen between their two families years from now that might create a rift between them that couldn't be healed, regardless of how many sparkly friendship memories they inherited later on. As an example, take the whole thing with "Iemitsu" killing Enma's family. Now, because Enma is one of the shiniest, most pure-hearted lads around, he was able to forgive Tsuna (eventually) after that, and because Amano has no stomach for hardcore plot twists apparently, it eventually turned out that Spade was responsible anyway, so we got lucky and the whole thing ended on a happy note. But supposing it hadn't? What if the Vongola really had murdered Enma's parents and sister in cold blood, and Enma had ultimately been unable to forgive them for it? It would have been completely understandable under the circumstances, but under Cozart's blanket condemnation Enma would still have been screwed.

Still, it's not really even this chapter that makes me go WTF at Cozart and Giotto so much as the previous flashback we got from them in chapter 333, where they were basically like, "Okay, let's let Spade run free and kill thousands of people because idk if we took responsibility and tried to stop him ourselves we might chip a nail or something." The thing is, I'm almost positive that if you sat down and ran through a list of possible motivations, there probably would be one that makes sense and would make their decisions seem logical and reasonable. But Amano sure hasn't gone out of her way to try, so yeah, for me that's been one of the few truly frustrating things about this arc. But oh well. XD

[identity profile] storm-obsession.livejournal.com 2011-07-04 05:42 am (UTC)(link)
They were mafia dudes blinded by pretty shiny friendship and their pretty hair, not analytical university professors. We can't blame them. XD